In this episode, Lianne Shinton of Pet Biz Experts CRM/Software interviews Ashley Gardenier, the passionate owner of Southern Paws Inc. Animal Rescue. We dive into Ashley's rescue work, explore how dog trainers can support rescues and enhance their own businesses, discuss disease control and safety when working with rescue dogs, and much more.

Discover potential programs dog trainers can offer to gain more business while assisting rescues, and learn how to effectively interact and get involved with rescue organizations. Whether you're a dog lover wanting to help rescues or a pet professional aiming to grow your business and support rescues, this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical tips.

Reach out to Ashley here: https://www.southernpawsinc.org

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Transcript of Podcast:

Lianne Shinton (00:00)

welcome everybody. I'm Lianne Shinton, the host and also owner of Pet Biz Experts, a software company for pet professionals. And I'm so excited because we have a rescue expert who's also a dog trainer joining us today. So welcome Ashley Gardeniere from Southern Paws, Inc. Animal Rescue.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (00:19)

Hi everybody, thanks so much for having me here today, Leanne.

Lianne Shinton (00:24)

I think that we're going to get a wealth of information, kind of an insider scoop on what's going on with the rescues in this day and age. Cause you know, there was pre COVID and then COVID and now we're post COVID. So we'd love to hear about that. And, you know, how dog training can help dogs stay in their homes and not end up back in rescue. So we'll dive into lots of good topics today that I think will help folks and help dogs too.

Ashley, maybe you could introduce yourself first and talk about your rescue, the dog training that you do, just so we can kind of learn a little bit about you first before we start.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (01:05)

I would love that. So my name is Ashley Gardiner. I run Southern Paws, Inc. Animal Rescue. I'm the director and founder. I've been in animal rescue for about 12 years now. I opened Southern Paws 10 years ago. We're just about to hit our 10 year anniversary. We are an organization that's a very teamwork, dream work kind of organization. The whole reason I started this was to

collaborate with rescues in the South in order to provide them with funding and help dogs that were down there that were gonna be euthanized due to overpopulation to find them homes up here. We developed this really cool family -based partnership with all of our sister organizations. Majority of them are in Mississippi and Louisiana.

But then it kind of took on a life of its own as we've grown and things like that. We now have partnerships in the Northeast. We have partnerships for not only sending dogs, but also receiving dogs for local organizations. We do a lot of work with like Rockland County. And we've kind of just developed this amazing organization to not only just provide adoptions, but to also provide support to other

rescue organizations and shelters around the country that really are amazing organizations, but they just kind of need help in a couple of different places. We are just about to open a training center, which I'm really excited about. It's actually called the Southern Paws Education and Training Center. It's mainly to help local animals be trained, families.

We do have, we do behavioral modification. We're really gonna focus on classes. We have things like these really cool workshops that we're gonna be doing for people who have dogs who are really timid. That's something we're really seeing due to COVID is these dogs that were just not appropriately socialized. So these are ways to desensitize them and things like that. I'm the head trainer at my center. And then I also have an amazing trainer that we've brought on that has like

30 plus years of experience. She actually trained me and my personal dogs and she's going to be coming on with me. And I'm just, I'm so excited to be able to provide, start providing more of a solution to the things that are going on in the rescue community. And that was really why we decided to open the training center. We were, A, we were suffering because adoptions are so slow that we're not able to get enough money in to cover our overhead.

And I thought this would be a really good way to do that. But also, I really wanted to do something that was gonna be more of a solution to keeping dogs in the home and keeping them out of the rescue and shelter community to be able to work with them and get them to their best potential so that they can really thrive and survive in their homes.

Lianne Shinton (04:13)

And what neck of the woods are you, like, where do you live or where are you at?

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (04:18)

yeah, duh. I live in Ringwood. Well, my facility is in Ringwood. I live in Ramsey, New Jersey. It's upper northern New Jersey, right on the border of New York State.

Lianne Shinton (04:30)

We just went through New Jersey and we saw a black bear. It was quite exciting.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (04:35)

Yeah, we have, especially where we are, so Ringwood, the facility itself is like in the middle of the woods. And it's so funny because even like my Bergen County volunteers, when they come up and they see a bear, it's like it's like it's like this big, huge experience. Like for me, I'm like, I see them all the time now. But like for them, they're like, I'm like, just get in the dog pens and stay there. It'll it'll go away.

Lianne Shinton (04:59)

my God, that's amazing. So exciting. Keeps you on your toes. So can you tell us a little bit about like what the rescue world, what the shelter world looks like right now? Just because, you know, we don't have as dog trainers, we don't have our finger quite on the pulse of like how things have evolved and changed and just what does it look like right now?

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (05:23)

It's, it's awful out here. it is... When COVID ended, it set us back, like...

probably 20 years in the animal rescue community. We had done, especially somebody like me who really works with the transport community and things like that, like we don't just, we're not an organization that just takes dogs from the south. Like there are a lot of organizations that do that where they kind of just like throw them some money, get the, like we, we're heavily involved in our organizations and we have what we call hub down there. So like,

I've been to that property. I go there. I work very closely with the people that run it. Like they're practically family at this point. And so because of that, I really got to be a part of building, like for instance, the transport program for originally it was for the Humane Society of Louisiana. And I was a part of that building of that 10 years ago. And it was before it had really started.

So we had this like huge shortage on on dogs up on puppies, especially up here, and they had this huge supply of them ultimately. So I was supply and demand. I was like, well, if we can work this out, we can save a lot of lives and. Working for 15, you know, 10 to 15 years to create that, and it's like dead now like we used to give you an idea. OK, so let me back up a little bit. So when Covid happened, we it was the best.

Okay. It was the best for animal rescue. And I remember this conversation I had with Jessica, who's my partner at Mississippi Animal Project that I'm very close to. And it was very late at night one night. We were talking on the phone about what was going on and how great it was that all these animals were getting out. And I remember sitting there, I mean, you couldn't, and at the time when this was going on, this was like when COVID just first started at the time, we couldn't

get dogs quick enough for people. Like they wanted them so bad and we just like couldn't supply them quick enough. And Jess and I were talking and we both were saying how concerned we were for what's going to happen after COVID. And not even just on returns, but like, for lack of a better term, and I hate using this term, but like this again, with the supply and demand, we've now flooded the market. So,

to put it into like a business term, that's kind of what we were really concerned about. And even halfway through it, like we launched the spay it forward program because I really wanted to do something to help in the communities. Cause I was like, we can just keep funneling dogs. That's fine. But what happens when the North is full? So we had started a community spay neuter program. We do all these things and then COVID ended. And before COVID we were running transports twice a month.

We run our own transports. So we were running them twice a month with a minimum of like 20 dogs on it. So roughly we were adopting out 40 dogs a month. And that was keeping us afloat. We would send back, we send back 75 % of the money we make to our sister organizations. And then that 25 % of those adoption fees were what was paying for our facility and this, that, and the other thing. And the transports and everything else. COVID booms. We're running

40 dog transports twice a month. We can't get them. We're running, we're almost to the point where we're running 40 dog transports every week and dogs are flying out of here and it's great. Luckily we were smart enough to take the excess money that we were making on that 25 % and throw it into savings just in case. Like I kept saying, something's not right. We need this just in case. Now COVID ends and within the course of literally two weeks,

we go from doing 80 adoptions a month to we can't even get 10 a month to cover our transport costs. So it's been this continuous ebb of flow of like just adaptation, like, and acclimating to this new environment and going through the like, okay, how are we gonna make, you know, we are now focusing more on fundraising. We're now going back more to foster -based instead of pre -adoption.

We're doing, you know, we just kind of are like, okay, how do we adapt to these new surroundings and these new changes? And meanwhile, in the economy, you have all these people, so returns are at an all time high. And it's not even that, like at least not with our organization, because our organization, like we're kind of, I'm a little bit of a control freak about where my dogs go. Like I'm very diligent and I do a lot of education with my clients. So our return rate has stayed very low.

But like, so even for us, it's not necessarily about like everybody went back to work and now they're like, I don't want my dogs, which is like what everybody kind of thinks. Like, yes, that did happen, but not to the extent we thought. It's more of the, the returns are more of the behavioral cases because nobody worked with their dogs. And that's really where the training element comes in. Like 90 % of the dogs that we're seeing returned are behavioral cases. The second part of it is the economy.

they can't afford to feed their kids. So with the economy and inflation the way that it is, nobody can afford anything. So they definitely can't afford a dog. And then you also have this element of like everybody who got a dog, like who wanted a dog, got a dog. So now our adoption pool is like a 15th of what it was. And most of the adopters that we're seeing now are previous adopters that are coming back for a second dog.

So we have that element. And then the final element really is the culture we live in. Like we right now with the way of the world being the way that it is and the sensitivities and things like that, there's very little account. Like people are not being held accountable for things. There's no accountability. There's no responsibility. There's this instant gratification of like, I want it fixed and I want it fixed now.

There's this, I don't wanna deal with it, it's not my problem. And I just wanna get rid of it as quick as possible because everything is so disposable. So we kind of are hitting it at all corners and the rescue community is suffering. We have like adoptions are dead, returns are at an all time high, finances are low because even like the companies that usually fund us are that like do our big donations. Like we just had our biggest event of the year.

And usually we bring in 10 ,000 easily just in sponsorships. This year we brought in two. And it's like, these are people that usually sponsor us every year. They're just like, hey, we don't have the money. We can't do it this year. And we get that. So right now the rescue community is really struggling and the North is pretty much closed. The euthanization rates down South are skyrocketing. I mean, they're worse than it was when I started, which is.

When I started, they were euthanizing, the shelters down south were euthanizing about 200 dogs, 200 dogs a week. And it wasn't like old dogs, bad dogs. It was like puppies, you know, it was just, they have nowhere to put them. And then now I would say we're at like the 400 mark. Like it's about double what it was. And it's...

It's hard for it's a hard thing to hear, but as an animal rescuer, it's even worse to feel it and see it like to know like we posted a dog and that dog didn't get picked and it got euthanized like and it wasn't a bad dog. It was a great dog. And the other thing that people are really don't understand in the past, we used to be able to do a lot more to help behavioral cases. As a rescue, we can't do that anymore.

There are dogs that are perfectly, and this is like the hard side of rescue, right? Like the things that nobody likes to talk about and the things that nobody likes to see.

We are suffering from this like, we can't help you because there's perfectly good, really great, super adoptable dogs that are dying. And like you got your dog and even though we gave you everything you could and gave you all the tools and you didn't follow it, now your dog is aggressive with people and he's got a bite history and he's got this and he's got that. We can't help you. Like, or like we used to have an immediate passive, like where we would be like, we'll take our dogs back always.

I can't do that now. So now because we have no space and we have dogs that are just sitting. Like we have like, I had this fluffy puppy that was up here like a week ago, like, and she just got adopted. She was like this little scruffy, frou -frou, like, not even like four month old, like perfectly healthy, great little dog. She would usually get adopted in like a week. I had her for three months. So if we can't move them, it bogs the system.

and it bogs it everywhere. And it's just the emotional toll it's also taking on rescuers is just, I mean, I've seen some of the best rescuers that I've ever worked with crack and crumble under this new regime. So what we're trying to do in the rescue community is really focus, we're doing this shift on community spay and neuter. And us as an organization are really trying to come up with ways to like,

try to stop the problem before it gets to us. Switch means a lot of work with our clients and things like that, opening the training center to keep the dogs out of the rescues and out of the shelters so that we're not killing the rescue community because that's what we're doing. Like the country right now is killing the rescue community.

Lianne Shinton (15:24)

Wow. And as you were going through that, I was thinking back to right in the middle of COVID and we did see, you know, all our shelters in San Diego were like cleared out. And it's funny when you say, you know, people after COVID didn't just like return all their dogs. Cause you're right. You know, looking back, we only had one dog that I could think of offhand that, you know, I personally trained and everything was the coolest dog, easy breezy, wonderful dog.

And then they were like looking for every reason to like send it back to the shelter and they, they did. and it was like a really easy dog, but yeah, I agree that it seems to be more behavior cases and that's where training is going to help. And I love how like your evolution for yourself and your work has evolved into training. And that says a lot that training is fundamental. And you know, again, me looking back like,

all of the dogs that I was seeing move from the shelter through our training program, they stayed in their homes other than like this one dog. And that wasn't the dog's fault. That was, they shouldn't have got that dog. It's really cool dogs. Sad. But yeah, I think, you know, how can trainers get involved so that they can help and have like kind of a communication, open up communication with

your rescue with a rescue that's in their area because it'll help their business too. But they're also giving back and maybe doing some pro bono work, maybe taking in a board and train foster or something like what types of programs, like what can you tell us that would help?

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (17:01)

yeah.

So there's a lot of different programs that you guys that like different trainers can initiate that are gonna not necessarily take a huge toll on them or even their business and their time. Because obviously as a dog trainer, like we all struggle with the same thing. None of us have time to like shower, let alone do anything like add in extra work that we're not necessarily getting paid for. But one of the things I will say is it really will.

It's these different programs are things that you can do. They're really little that make a huge difference to the rescue community, but also are going to help promote your business, which is obviously like one of the reasons why we're all here, right? Like what can we do that's a mutually beneficial thing that's not going to kill us, but also provide like a big impact. And there's a couple of things like one of the things that we're implementing is if you're teaching group classes.

Allow an extra space in your group class and coordinate with a rescue that you like or a shelter that you like that has a foster program and let if you have an open space like I don't know about you guys but when I teach my classes I always have like like I have space for necessarily six but I might have like four that show up. Look at your schedule that day and say I have it I have one space let's why don't we reach out to Southern Paws and see

if their foster wants to jump into that class. And it's a matter of talking about like whether you own the training center or you're an individual trainer, coordinating that and being able to do that, that's huge. Like one of the big things that I've noticed with our foster program is we started doing these foster seminars and things. They're super easy. I mean, we do them via Zoom on like a Sunday night at eight o 'clock and anybody who wants to jump on can do them.

and it's specifically for our fosters and it's literally just a how do we make your life easier? Like that's the best way to describe it. Like what are you dealing with this week? Like it's a Q &A, it's you know occasionally I'll do a video and show them a new trick to learn or not trick but like a basic command to learn like whether it's place or especially with the puppies like place focus like

These kinds of things. One of the sessions that we just did, we really spent a lot of time going over crate games and how to do appropriate crate acclimation. I've noticed that this little bit of support that we give that's like literally every Sunday night or every other Sunday night, depending on a holiday weekend, it makes this huge difference for our fosters and it makes it so much easier for them so that they're not burning out and they're giving that structure to the dogs.

that we really need them to give so the dog's not just like a psychopath who's running a muck and like then we gotta give it to somebody and it's a psychopath that's running a muck. Like it gives them that structure and that schedule and how to do things and it answers a lot of those questions like I'm having an issue with potty training, what do I do? You know, the same way you would do with your clients. That's something that you can do that's really, really simple and it also like my fosters are networking me.

because we're doing it. Like they're like, you know, anytime somebody is like, I need a trainer. And they're like, call Ashley. Like, this is her contact, call Southern Paws, you know, or call Stacy, whatever it is. Another thing you guys can do is, which is really simple, is going down to the shelter, creating a relationship with the shelter. And if you guys have even twice a month, like you schedule it on like a Thursday,

you know, or whatever your like slowest day is. And I know we don't have a lot of slow days. So like, if you can even do it once a month, like it's still a big thing. Going down, teach some classes down there or work with the handlers that are down there. There's a great organization. It's called Dog Play for Life. I don't know if you've ever heard of this organization. I

love what they do. If I had a full shelter, I would be implementing that. I would be like out there, I would be doing it. I've seen them at conferences and I've studied them and they're just so amazing. Teaching the staff how to A, handle the dogs, B, enrichment. Go do an enrichment course. Teach everybody that's there about enrichment, because that's one of the big things that's lacking at these big shelters. Teach them how to do basic

structural work in such a chaotic environment. Any little thing that you can give is going to help those dogs and help those people. And if you have more time or you're just getting started out, you know, one of the big things is you can also offer like a package for size. So say I'm going to use Four Legs Good just because I did work at their shelter for quite some time. And I have a great relationship with them. Like I could go to Four Legs Good. I can do my work down there with them. Like we're, we're

We're talking about doing a lot of different things there. And one of the things I can do is I can print a flyer with a QR code and I can give that flyer to Fourlegs and say, hey, every adoption for a dog that you do, give them my flyer. Right there, you just hit a huge network basis because now you have all of these people. You can also do things like partnering with, I mean, and this goes the same way it would for any company, like vet's offices, grooming, like all these things make.

I guess the biggest thing is just making it mutually beneficial, but for those of us in the rescue community, we need you, like right now. Like anything you can give us, we really need to take because we're just, we're struggling. And even like with me, you know, we do, I don't, I'm not particularly good with behavioral modification. It's not my jam. It's great for Stacey, but we don't have like a board and train program or like even a day train program.

Ours is mostly classes and stuff like this because of our building zoning. So like I send them over to my training center that is where I did like my mentorship and like I have a great relationship with them. And like even with our rescue discounts, it's costing me a leg. Like I'm going to might as well saw my leg off and give it to them because we just and we can't afford it. So what do we do as an organization right now when we can't afford the training?

We don't have any place because we can't afford the training. The dogs are just sitting. They're not getting any better. They're getting worse. Now we need more training that we don't have the money to do. It's just like this rough cycle. So anything that anybody in the training community could do right now is gonna, even if it's just, like I said, you know, two hours once a month, it's gonna make a huge impact. And I don't think people realize that. I don't think anybody realizes how bad the animal welfare crisis is.

unless you're in it. And I don't, I also don't think people realize how beneficial it can be to you and your business, but also how much like, it doesn't take a lot of time. Like you can take an hour a week, you can take two hours a week, you could take an hour every three weeks, you know, whatever it is, get on a schedule and it's, it's going to make a huge impact for a little bit of time.

Lianne Shinton (24:11)

Wow, that is some incredible advice. I love like the zoom foster training and so many great ideas there that can help, you know, help the dogs, help the fosters, every everybody and help you guys. I think one of the things that like I struggle with, I'm more of an introvert and I'm kind of shy about reaching out to the shelter or the rescue. And I don't like getting told, no, like what

what would that reach out look like? Would it be a phone call? Would it be an email? What should we say as trainers? Do we provide some reviews? Should we just stop in? Like what do you suggest there to kind of bridge that gap?

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (24:51)

So first of all, I would say nine and a half times out of 10, they're gonna be like, you're a trainer? Come down, like I got you. You know, some of the, I think focusing in the beginning on the littler organizations might be a little, unless you have like a big training center and a big reputation and things like that,

If you have stuff like that, I would say go for the bigger organizations, but like the littler ones that are less like corporatized, you're gonna usually have more success with. That's the first thing I would say. You could start that conversation however you want. I am somebody who like, I mean, I am not an introvert at all. I'm sure you could tell I am the most extroverted person like ever. But I would definitely, I like to go in person.

Like I'll just go knock on a door like, hey, it's me. You know, if I'm going to like, especially a place that's like an actual shelter, I'll just show up and be like, hey, you know, as a manager around today, this is who I am. I feel like when you go face to face with somebody, it just is different. And I feel like people don't do that anymore. You know, like this is like in -personing, I'm sorry, in -person marketing is like really nonexistent because we have so much technology, you know.

A lot of the times it's really making that, like I know for me, it's always better if I can make that face -to -face connection, even if it's over Zoom, like, but that face -to -face connection, or better yet, go down and inquire about their volunteer program, like, and say to them, because that's another thing you guys could do. Like maybe, I don't know about you guys, but when I'm having a really bad day, even as a rescue owner, because my rescue is foster based, so like my dogs are good, I know that.

But like if I'm having a really bad day and I just need to like get out of my head, I'll go down to one of my partner shelters and go walk a couple dogs. Or like if there's a dog there that I feel like really needs some work, I'll go work that dog. Nobody's ever gonna say no to that. Each organization has their own process for volunteering. Like you might not be able to just like show up and be like, hi, I'm here to walk dogs. Or you might. Like I know there's a couple of them that are shelters that are here that are...

that are kind of just so desperate for help. But I mean, I know, so we have this one volunteer at Four Legs Good that I partner with, Jess, and there's two of them actually, it's Jess and Lee. And they're amazing. They are the reason why dogs have gotten adopted. And all they are is volunteers. They have a dog that they specifically gravitate to. They take them out, they do training with them, they do walks with them, they take them to the park, they take them for pup cups, they take them.

and they get them out of the shelter and give them like an exposure. And like, yeah, I get it. We don't typically have a lot of time for that. But for me, it's almost like a reset. So I don't know if that's something that you as a, you know, as a person, I mean, you might also be like, I am done with dogs. Like I don't want to see a dog. I don't want it. Like when you're done, you're tired and you're exhausted. And the last thing you want to do is be around dogs. But for me, I, that's kind of like where I do my reset and

I would say, so like volunteering there, you could go in and ask to just speak to their manager. You could send an email. If you're super introverted, send an email, set up a Zoom. If you are, I always say call, like call and then follow up with an email. That's usually, cause it's, I'm telling you, it's that one -on -one like that, that puts you in their face. That's going to make you want to do it. But like I said, nine and a half times out of 10, they're just going to be grateful that they have with somebody, especially a trainer.

who's taking interest in their organization and willing to help the dogs in their care.

Lianne Shinton (28:41)

That is such great, great advice. It makes me motivated to like go to the local rescue and be like, can I walk your dogs? So yeah. I think another thing that kind of like cements me where I'm like, are they going to be okay with my training method? And I think that as dog trainers, we get hung up on all these different like terms, like there's positive and there's balanced and there's force free. And

Like I don't think the rescues really care that much, but maybe they do. And I guess if you could give us a bit of direction there, like whatever type of trainer we are, we don't want to offend anyone. We don't want to get told, no, like, do you have any advice if we, you know, just a little shy about that?

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (29:26)

so I would say, the most places are going to ask you like, what, what kind of training do you do? You know, I would say when you talk to them and you do your, like your initial, like for lack of term, like initial console, which isn't really what you're doing, but like your initial introductions, I would ask them, like, is there anything that you have that like you need?

Like, is there a specific dog here? Like, I guess, I would go in and I would say, I'm trying to put myself in that situation, right? So I would go in and I would say, listen, I'm Ashley, I don't do behavioral mod, but I can handle like behavioral dogs. Is there anything that you need right now? Do you have any dogs specifically that you feel like really need some work? Now, if I was a specialist in behavioral mod,

I would go in and maybe say like, who's your worst dog? Let's see what you got. Like, do you need like, what do you need help with? Because they're going to really want to utilize you to your skills. So like, if your skills are just like, hey, I'm really good with like the younger dogs and the good and like, I can do just basic obedience, they're gonna say, hey, do it. If they if you say to them, listen, I can handle and do behavioral modification on the big dogs.

that are gonna eat me, I got you. The other thing is evaluations. Like that's, yeah. So evaluations are another way, going back to our previous point, that you can kind of get your foot in the door. I hate to say this, and people are gonna hate me for this. But it's true, and it's the really terrible side of rescue. Some dogs, especially in the shelter environment, some of them are just dangerous.

You know, so in order to be able to do those evaluations, we really need that third party trainer to really come in and say, hey, yes, this is fixable. No, this isn't fixable. You know, and that's something else that we can utilize different trainers for as a rescue organization or a shelter organization or things like that. The other thing that, again, like that falls into that is going to be.

And it's funny, because I actually see this. I have this trainer that I work with and he does behavioral modification and he's a fantastic trainer. I've seen this man work with dogs that like nobody can even touch. Like this man is amazing. He does real behavioral mod. He does like, he works with the worst of the worst.

Okay, so I work with this really phenomenal trainer and he has some methods that are like, they're negative based, you know, like they're in the, you know, positive punishments and the...

You know, that kind of thing. And he's a strong handler. Like, he's used to working with working dogs. Like, he's not aggressive. He doesn't hurt the dogs. Like, but I always feel like there's, and I know us as a training community really most of the time we feel this way, we're like, there's different trainers for different, like different training methods for each dog. And each dog needs something different. And we always want to figure out what that dog needs. And then that's the training style. So like for us, it's really important that we're just maladapted, like not maladapted, but

We are adaptive to whatever the dog necessarily needs. And that's one of the things I really like about this specific trainer. And he works with a lot of the county shelters that are the really like, they have the worst dogs, they're overwhelmed, like this, that, and the other thing. Not only does he network the dogs, but he also will go in and they see a lot of his more negative training because that's the dogs that the shelter needs him to work with. He's not working with Foo Foo, the ape.

we called puppy, you know, who he can work with and does a great job with. But they see him really working with these like aggressive dogs. And the volunteers hate him. Like, but it's weird because they keep calling him to come back. And if they have a behavioral case, they're like, we should call him. Like, but and it's he's a great trainer. But in the volunteer community and the rescue community, everybody's got a lot of opinions on.

And a lot of them don't understand training. Like that's the other thing you also have to take into account is that these are people that like, they just love dogs, they're bleeding hearts, you know? They just want to love them until they're better. Like, which is a great theory, but it doesn't necessarily translate in real life. So I would say, I always say to people like, don't listen to it. Know your worth, know what you're good at.

be a good trainer, be adaptive to whatever that dog needs, use your training style to whatever they need. And if you can't, if it's too much for you, literally just voice to them, hey, listen, I can't work with this dog, this isn't my specialty and I'm gonna do more damage than good. And that's, people are gonna appreciate that as a trainer. I think in the training community, we constantly are trying to prove ourselves, right?

We constantly are trying to show people we can do this. Like we're good at this. We're better at this. You know, we have whatever. And I think a lot of the time we lose sight of the fact that we're all so human, right? And we don't have to specialize in necessarily everything. It's okay to say no sometimes and refer out like to another trainer who might be better at that than you are. And that's something that's really cool about our training.

methodology I guess you could say or our training theory I should say is our big thing is we don't need to fix everybody we're not about making money where I mean yes we're always about making money but our number one priority is the dogs not the money so for us like I can look at a dog do a basic eval on a dog and say like this one's above my pay grade like but I have this network of like 10 other trainers

And I can look at their problems and say, you need to go see this one because they're perfect for that. They're going to be able to help you with that. So don't get discouraged by the things that they're saying in the shelter because at the end of the day, you're not there to make people happy. You're there for the dogs, right? Just any rescue. Like we're not, I say to people all the time, my priority is not you. My priority is the dog. Like as a rescuer, I am responsible for that animal. And I think people

As trainers, because we have to do so many, like so much one -on -one stuff, like with humans, we kind of lose that, right? Like we don't have to be the best at everything. We might know somebody who's better at it. Yeah, a lot of people are like, you don't want to refer your clients out, you're losing money. But you know what? That client, even if you refer out to Joe Schmo, who does behavioral mod, that's way above you, that client's going to remember that they talked to you and you gave the referral.

So when they have somebody that comes in that's not looking for behavioral mod, they're gonna say, call Ashley at Southern Paws, she'll be able to help you. So I just wouldn't get discouraged by it. I would just let it roll off. Again, you're there for the dogs and take a breath. Because yeah, not everybody's outgoing and like in your face as I am.

Lianne Shinton (36:52)

Yes, that is excellent advice as well. And I think when you touched on like sometimes it's okay to say no, maybe you could talk to us a little bit more about those evals. you know, we've definitely had situations with dogs where, you know, the owner looks like a domestic violence abused victim. And I'm like, this, this dog can't go into another home and you have to have those tough conversations.

Or you have to refer them out to somebody who can help them possibly but sometimes it's better to have that conversation and Just like I think most of the trainers I know that have that do evals. It's usually for the more difficult dogs So maybe you could talk to us about that and like don't say you know to euthanize the dog unless you're sure maybe refer out and like what whaty can you recommend if you get called as a trainer for an eval like

with a more difficult dog.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (37:53)

this is such a slippery slope I have to censor myself very much here so that I don't end up like having people with pitchforks trying to like burn down my building so

I would say, so there's a couple of things I would say. First of all, the shelter environment is not a good environment for dogs, period. Like us as trainers, we know a lot about dog behavior and psychological and all of the things. It is prison. Like it's literally solitary confinement in prison is what it's like in most shelters, especially.

It is not psychologically healthy at all. And the problem is that there's something that we call, it's like shelter stress or kennel stress. It's often known as, you'll see it a lot with spinning. You'll see it a lot with dogs who have been at the shelters a long time or dogs that are severely high energy that can't get the energy out, they start spinning.

We see it a lot with like German shepherds, huskies, like those are dogs that don't do well at the shelter at all. Anything that's like, especially the really smart ones, that's where we'll really see it. And I think for behavioral evaluations, I think this is a really hard part about it. We have to kind of take it with a grain of salt because it's, I always say to my clients, dogs are a lot like people in the sense that they,

act very differently in different environments. Like I also say to people like I can take a dog into my home and work with it and make it perfect and I can give it to you and in two weeks you can destroy it. It's all about the structure. It's all about the environment. It's all about the balance. It's are we getting enough energy out? Are we are we cage fighting because dogs are walking by? That's and going back to it. That's actually why a lot of the reason I love that dogs play for life like

like a methodology because they kind of make it where they're working the dogs all day long, which is tiring them out, which is getting rid of like the cage fighting and the walking past the kennels and like, it's a lot. You have to keep that in mind when you're doing these behavioral evaluations and no behavioral evaluation should be done for at least a week to two weeks after you get the dog. The dog has to decompress. We've had dogs come into the shelter. So one of the, let me, let me,

explain why first, but we run, we have a program where we go in through my organization and we work with a rescue to revamp their shelter. So we'll go in, if it's unhealthy, we'll clean it, we'll decon it, we'll do a full overhaul of everything, their protocols, their procedures, their adoption processes, their computer processes, like everything. So.

I actually got hired, which was funny because I had never done it long term. I usually go in for like a week, 10 days, revamp, and then we leave and we do like check -ins later. But this one specifically happened to be local and this is how I ended up at Four Legs Good. They hired me for a three month contract as their shelter supervisor to get the place up and running. So even though I'm in rescue and I also am a trainer and all these things, like I've worked in a shelter before so...

I'm very knowledgeable about those processes. And I'll tell you, there are dogs that like, would come in and they'd be vicious. Like you couldn't get near them, you couldn't touch them, you couldn't feed them. Like it was like, and it's funny, there's this guy, Mike R that works there with me. And he would say, like, I was always the one that was getting pictures of the dogs. So I would have him come out and we'd do like these little like photo shoots with the dogs. And it was always a question of like,

How close can I get? Like, and Mike, it's funny, like you could actually see these transformations in these pictures of like the first day they were there when we just did like their basic intake, the second couple of days that they were there where we did their like portraits, and then like another couple of weeks later, whatever. And you can see the difference, but like that beginning couple of weeks was like, they're terrified. Like, so you can't do an appropriate behavioral evaluation on that dog.

And that's something that makes me insane because they'll have a dog that's got like a bite history. They'll call an evaluator in, the evaluator will come in and they'll take one look at the dog. They'll do the test with the hand and like the food bowl and like all the things, which I personally think that test is kind of like not a good test. Like I don't like that test. so they'll do all those things and then they're like, yeah, no, the dog's, the dog's an issue. Put it down.

And I'm like, you gave it three days, three days, it just got here. It doesn't even have a schedule yet. Like it has no idea what's to expect. You're setting it up for failure. So I guess what I would say in that sense.

I do think sometimes that they're brought in and they do a real evaluation and a lot of it is for that third party opinion to be able to euthanize. But I would also say there's a lot of trainers out there. They're really hard to come by and they're really hard to find. But I would absolutely look into like specialty behavioral rescues or trainers. Like there's one that Fourlegs works with and

It's stupid expensive. I mean, like, they're charging, which you guys could do if you have a space and you do behavioral mod, like, this is something you could do. They're charging, I think it's like $10 ,000 a dog at the rescue discount, and they get the dog in. It's a flat fee. You pay 10 grand, which most of us cannot afford as rescuers, but there are these shelters that do have these, like, contracts behind them that are like county contracts. They're $10 ,000.

They give you the dog, you do all of the work with the dog, you do everything and then you network it out to find it a home. And it's like, you find the adopter, you work with the adopter, you do all these things. It's a great process and it brings in a ton of money. A lot of us don't have the finances for that, but it's much better than a sanctuary option. It's at least giving them a chance, right? Like, I hate these sanctuaries, these sanctuaries are glorified like...

glorified shelters. They're bigger 10 by 10 shelters instead of 6 by 12, whatever it is. Those are awful. They throw food, like they're this, when you see them, like they look like they're such a great idea. They're not. I've been to a lot of these places. They're horrific. The mental stability on the dogs at these like sanctuaries, 9 times out of 10 are not good. They literally throw food over. The dogs in a 10 by 10 pen, 24 seven with absolutely no contact. It's horrific.

So this is something and I hate to say it, but like if they get the dog out and they do the work with the dog and they do all of the things and that dog is not improving, at least you gave them a chance, right? And that's another thing I would say, if you have the ability to board and you like those behavioral modification tape, like instead of going to the shelter and looking at this dog for an hour and praying for the best, take the dog home.

spend a couple days with it, see how it does in a home environment because it's gonna be a lot different than it's gonna be at the shelter. And that's something you can do. And you could even work out like a small fee with the rescue to be able to do that. It might not be, you know, not astronomical, something that's affordable, but at least that way you're not getting like, you know, you're not losing out on money or clients because you took this dog in. You know, do it at cost. Like whatever it costs you, do it, you know, and bring them in.

evaluate them in your home. You have the ability to handle them. The only time they're going to say no to that is if it's a county shelter and it's a liability issue, but usually they'll have you do a foster contract. So they'll still hold the liability on that dog.

Lianne Shinton (46:13)

That's a fantastic idea. I think that like sometimes, you know, we say no, we say it's time to euthanize. and we're getting much more information cause the dog living, you know, with the family, maybe we've already tried some training and so on, but there's a lot of like things to respect that that poor dog is going through. So I think that's a really good option to take it home before, you know, you have to live with that. You have to say, I, I said to euthanize that dog. So.

at least give it a shot considering all of those variables.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (46:46)

That's actually what we do with, so before we even thought of our training center with my trainer, that's one of the things that we do. Like if I have a dog that's really questionable, I'll call my trainer and, and I'll be like, hey, can you board this dog for a couple of days, do some work with it, see how it is. And then that way we can also find, gives us a little bit of time to find an appropriate placement for it, whether that's networking out to a better rescue that's more suited for dogs with behavioral needs.

or whether that's just, you know, hey, we need an adult foster home that can handle a dog that's like a lunatic on a leash or, you know, whatever. But that's something that we do. And I mean, she makes quite a bit of money on it. Like not, not, not because she's overcharging, like she undercharges us substantially, but because of the area that we're in, she still makes enough money that it's worth it to her to do it.

Lianne Shinton (47:37)

The other thing that you spoke on that I thought was so cool was you're going in and you're kind of reassessing or helping these shelters or rescues get off the ground. And it reminded me of that Temple Grandin style, you know, Temple, and she would go in to the slaughterhouses and I know the cows are going to die anyway, yes, but at least they can be happier while they're alive and it's easier on the staff and things like that. So it's very Temple Grandin of you.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (48:05)

Thank you. And that's ultimately what we're talking about here. You guys doing this Temple Grand stuff, right? Like, we know that these environments aren't always the best and it's like the worst case scenarios, but you're doing something that can improve the quality of life of these animals so much that it's like, it's still, it's the same concept. It's just, everybody can do it. And like I said before, it doesn't take a lot of time. It doesn't take that much energy.

You know, and a lot of times for us, like, I love hanging out with dogs, especially like I have a behavioral case at Fourlegs that I love. And he's not even a behavioral case, like he's a little spooky with men and he's a beautiful German Shepherd. He has deteriorated so badly at this facility. He's a five -year -old German Shepherd named Jake, and I love him. He is so smart and he's so good with me. He's a little spooky with men. He's not good, of course, with other dogs.

He's deteriorating so badly, but going down and just spending time with him, like, refills my cup. And I just love him. Like, I love everything about him. And we've been trying to find him a home. I just haven't been successful yet, but doing anything you can do to make the animals' lives better in that situation and, like, increase their quality of life is...

really huge to any of us in the rescue community and right now we can take all the support we can get.

Lianne Shinton (49:35)

Yeah, I'm definitely motivated to go to the shelter right now and start walking dogs. I guess that leads me to like my next question, because like I'm kind of a control freak and like I want to make sure my dogs at home don't get sick. If I walk into the shelter and I'm like walking around and getting stuff on my shoes that, you know, it's just just disease and germs and things, even though it's clean. Like what could I do as an extra precaution to make sure I don't bring something home to my dogs or my board and train dogs, my clients' dogs?

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (50:04)

So that's actually a fantastic question. So I actually, ironically, because I'm like the doer of all hats, I have a Hazmat technician certification. So this is a great question for me to answer for you. So I'm also a psychopath when it comes to our disease control protocols, which is why I can take a shelter that's completely diseased and flip it and do whatever, because I'm literally a psychopath.

The what I would say is I personally my my Own thing whenever I leave the shelter Whatever shoes I wear it like i'll grab a crummy set of sneakers and like those are my shelter shoes They don't even come in my house. Like they literally either live in the car. They live in the garage They they live somewhere where my dogs aren't going to get them like that's because that's where it is now if I do on any weird chance need to

use them for something, bleach. Bleach is going to be your friend, okay? One of the biggest diseases that we, I shouldn't even say because there's people all over the country who are who are going to hear this. So things you need to worry about, distemper. It happens. Parvo, not even a question. Probably there. When it comes to cats, even, you're looking at panleukopenia, you're looking at kennel cough, you're looking at, there's just a giardia, parasites, you know, all these different things and they

The shelters are rampant with them because no matter how much you clean them, you're going to have things because you have open intake. So like a good shelter is going to have different sections. That's like your, your open intake dogs. They usually stay there for seven to 14 days. Then they get moved into a gen pop, you know, kind of like jail. Like that's the best way to describe it. Kind of like jail. And usually you're going to be walking those dogs that are in gen pop or evaluating those dogs that are in the gen pop sections. But

you might have to cross over and with disease tracking you can bring anything. So I usually go home, sneakers, my setup is in the garage, like sneakers, boots, whatever it is, they stay in the garage, those are my shelter shoes. I do spray them with bleach just so that if I did walk through something I'm not tracking it back into the shelter with me next time I wear them. Or I'll use, there's a really good product out there, it's called Rescue or Excel, those are two that are really, really good.

spray the bottoms of your shoes with them and just let them sit and air out. That'll kill anything that's like parvo if you don't want to bleach your stuff. Same thing with your clothing. Strip in the garage, okay? Run through your house naked. Do it. Like, the love, do it for the dogs. So that's what I typically do. I'll like throw my clothes on the floor in the garage or put them in a bag and, or I'll throw them like, I'll strip and then throw them right in the washing machine and just run through the house like in my birthday suit.

Like, go up to the bathroom, jump in the shower, give yourself a good scrub. But really, you don't, a lot of the diseases that you're gonna find in the shelters, like the airborne stuff, like, as long as you're washing your hands and stripping your clothes immediately when you walk in and you're not having your dogs like, lay all over you while you're in your shelter clothes, you don't have to worry about it. I mean, we've, I've handled parvo, I've handled distemper, we've handled, especially with the revamps we do. And there are nights where we come home and we're just like,

we gotta get in the shower, but like one's gotta get in the shower first, because there's one shower and there's 10 of us. So we're all like sitting on the porch, you know, we're not like, and then, you know, you take your clothes, you put them in a bag, we all throw them in and you can throw rescue or Excel in the wash. It's an expensive product, but I recommend everybody has that in their toolkit, because anytime you're working with a shelter, the last thing you wanna do is bring some sort of a disease out of the shelter, wash your hands, use like your basic.

general hygiene stuff, strip in the garage, you should be good.

Lianne Shinton (53:54)

Yeah with parvo, you know, that's always a biggie with puppies and stuff I worked in a veterinary hospital and I think our protocol and this is a long time ago So I might be wrong, but you're the best one to ask I think we you know If we had a parvo puppy and in a room then we would clean with bleach, of course But we would lock that room down for like 72 hours so that's 14 days

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (54:16)

14 days that room gets locked down for. Yeah. Well, so in a vet hospital, it's probably obviously different. But I will also tell you, like, it's really interesting. So we had a parvo outbreak. This was two years ago now. We had a litter that broke with it. And which, first of all, like kudos to my team. My team is amazing. And it's because I'm a psychopath. We had them come in on transport and there was like,

30 dogs on that transport, I think, and the only ones that broke with it were our litter, like this one litter. They did such a good job with disease control protocol that nobody else got it. And I was like, you guys, kudos to you, you're amazing. But, so we had this one litter, and we have this really awesome vet hospital up here that I absolutely adore, and it's a very humanized vet, like emergency hospital.

And they're very human. So like you can go in, you can spend time with your animals. It's all treatment. Like we're like, they do everything with you present. It's a very interesting, very cool form of vetting. And I would go in and I had my Parvo clothes. Like I would, cause I would go in and I would lay with the puppies while they were hospitalized. Cause a lot of the time with Parvo and things like that, I feel like the extra added TLC really helps them.

recover is important. So at night, it would be like, I mean, I get done with work and it would be like 11 o 'clock at night and I'd go and I'd lay on the floor until like two o 'clock in the morning and sleep in the ISO room with them for a little while. And I had this like change of clothes and I had like my Parvo clothes and they literally stayed in that room. I would get there. I would I would strip in literally in the hallway. I would strip into my Parvo clothes with my Parvo shoes. I would take all of my clothes, put them in a different box.

and then I, or in a different bag, and then when I was done, I would go to the bathroom, I would strip out of my Parvo clothes, put them in the bag, wash up, put my regular clothes back on, and that's what I would leave in. So like, the best protocol always is isolation of your clothing and the items that you're using. A lot of people are like, well you can wear a gown, and you can wear this, and you can wear this over your clothes, and this and that.

Okay, you're wearing a gown, that's great. Now you brought your phone in, you touched your phone. Here's your phone. Okay, now you leave, you strip out of your gown, you wash your hands, you're good to go. Now you grab your phone. You just recontaminated all your stuff, right? Like all your hands. So now you touched the doorknob. You now just gave your third transfer. Now somebody comes in with a puppy, they grab that doorknob, and it's a mess. So like, it was funny, because I was watching all of these vet techs.

And I called, I actually called the medical director and I was like, hey, we gotta talk about your disease control protocol. And he was like, what are you seeing? And I was like, this is a problem. So we had this whole thing and it was cool to be able to like kind of help out the hospital and give them like a better protocol for their disease control. But that's like really the best, the absolute best advice I can give you is just have your shelter closed. Those are your shelter closed. They go to the shelter. They only go to the shelter.

their crap clothes, like, do it.

Lianne Shinton (57:39)

Yeah, this is, and this is good too, even though it's a little bit scary and it might deter people like I don't want to go into the shelter, but we deal with it too with our clients' dogs. You know, our clients' dogs sometimes have Giardia, Coccydia, Kennel Cough. So, you know, it's, it's good protocol to think about in case you have an outbreak or you're engaged with a dog that is possibly sick. You don't want to come home and bring that to your dog. So this is good stuff to talk about.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (58:04)

Yeah, there was even like, and it's so important too, because I feel like a lot of the people in the training world don't necessarily think about disease control as much as they should. Like I know like a lot of the times we'll hear about kennel cough, like outbreaks at different pet facilities and boarding facilities and training facility, you know, all these different animal businesses. And a lot of that honestly is kennels, your kennels, like your very kennels that you use.

they're not getting cleaned well enough. You might be using the right product, like you might be using say, Rusky or Excel or any of those products or bleach, but you're not getting in the crevices and things. So like with our transport, like, and it's hard, it's a hard balance, right? You wanna try and balance it. I'm not saying you should be deconing your kennels every single day and ripping them apart and da, da, da, da, like, that's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is like once a week,

break all your kennels down and bleach them out. Don't just leave them together, especially the berry kennels, because diseases will stick in those crevices. It's not just wash them down. It's like once a week, take all your supplies outside and bleach all your kennels. That's going to help lower your disease control tremendously. Make sure you're using the animal appropriate products that are going to get all of those things. Make sure that you guys have a disease control vaccine protocol.

for your animals that are coming in. Now, I'm a big proponent. I believe that puppies that are on one round of vaccines should be training and should be socializing immediately because that's when it's so crucial, right, in their development. So like our training center, we do have those classes where we're like, okay, we do, but we also are crazy about our disease control protocols, you know? And yes, these things that like, it sounds like it's scary, it's not. I have literally had everything under the sun.

that I've come in contact with, my dogs have never gotten it. Like, I have five dogs in this house. Like, nobody, I've even had some of those dogs in this house. Like, I've had sick dogs in this house because we didn't have anywhere else to put them. My dogs never got it. So it's not necessarily a matter of like, is it scary and this, that, and the other thing. The likelihood is you're not going to transfer that just based on basic hygiene. But the things that I'm telling you are the things that...

Shoes, absolutely. They need to stay outside. Clothing, like if you make it in the house and your dog sniffs your leg, it's not the end of the world. Like take them off when you can take them off. Don't be laying around on your furniture. Like just use common sense. You know, the same way we all went through COVID, right? Wash your hands. Like, you know.

Lianne Shinton (1:00:46)

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we, you know, we learned a lot through COVID because of that. So yes, good conversation. So as we kind of wrap up, I wanted to have you share how people can reach you, your website, and also if you could share about Jake and how they can find out more about him, the German Shepherd.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (1:01:06)

I would love that. I love Jake. So, like I said, Jake's a five -year -old German Shepherd. I don't even remember he's been at the shelter for months now because he has in He's a little bit weird with people and he's not good with dogs. He's great with me Like this dog is phenomenal. I am NOT a German Shepherd person like I don't like sure shepherds. They're just not my thing, but

in dog training, I understand why people like Shepard's because he is so intelligent. Like, he picks things up like this, he's very food motivated. Like, he's been working on his basic commands with me. He also works with Jess and with Lee and with Mike. And he's just, he's full -bred, he's absolutely gorgeous. We don't know, he's had diarrhea since we got him. We have tried different food, we've tried different, we've tried

different medications we've tried we've run like a thousand fecal samples my personal like opinion it's the stress of the shelter environment I think once he's out of the shelter environment I think that his poop will solid up but he's at the Four Legs Goods shelter if you want to work with him or and you're in the area it's it's the Rockland County New York shelter it's right over the border of New Jersey and New York it's about

Probably not even 20 minutes from the Tappanzee Bridge, like probably 10 minutes maybe from the Tappanzee Bridge. If you guys are in the area, you are willing to do a board and train, willing to do whatever with him, please, please, please reach out to us. You can reach out to our organization directly through our website, which is www .southernpawsinc .org.

You can shoot us a Gmail at southernpawsrescue at gmail .com. You can find us on Facebook on, also I think, so on Facebook we're Southern Paws Inc. On Instagram we are Southern Paws Rescue because somebody locked us out by accident of our Southern Paws Inc account so we now have a new one. But we're on all the socials, like, and if you guys have questions too, like that's another thing.

especially with the disease control stuff, I would love to make myself available to anybody who maybe just has questions about that or is concerned about that or like what you guys can do with your facilities. Like you absolutely can give out my contact information. If somebody has questions about things that want to help, like reach out to me. Like I'm all about collaboration as well. Like let's start a program. Let's get this up and right. Like I'm all about it. Like we have a cool idea for something. Like let's do it.

So anything you guys need, questions you guys might have, please don't hesitate to reach out, shoot us an email and we'll just make sure it says Attention Ashley on it.

Lianne Shinton (1:03:59)

Perfect. So everybody go to SouthernPiesInc .org and reach out to Ashley if you wanted to connect with her on any of those topics. Get more information or if you wanted to maybe look into Jake, hopefully next week Jake will be moving in a more forward direction. But thank you so much Ashley for joining us and for everything you do. I got a little choked up a few times there. I'm getting choked up now. You're doing an amazing thing and I'm so glad that you were able to share today.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (1:04:29)

Leanne, thank you so much for having me. This has just been so much fun. I love doing podcasts and doing all these things. I feel like education is so important and I love being able to collaborate with organizations like you guys with Pepis and all the things to really just like, let's share knowledge, let's share information, let's see all the things we can do to really just boost us and our businesses and our relationships. The more knowledge we have, the better we can be at what we do.

Lianne Shinton (1:04:58)

Fantastic. Well again, thank you so much for joining us, Ashley. I'm Leanne, again, the host from Pet Biz Experts, and thanks everyone for joining us.

Ashley Gardenier Southern Paws Inc. (1:05:09)

Thanks guys!